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	<title>Comments on: Communing and Consuming</title>
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		<title>By: I understand how the lack of physical symbols is a symbol in itself. While it was seemingly so meaningful to first gen Qs, I wonder if the power dissipates with each generation: as we follow them, we see more of their shoes than where they were headed. - </title>
		<link>http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/comment-page-1/#comment-11120</link>
		<dc:creator>I understand how the lack of physical symbols is a symbol in itself. While it was seemingly so meaningful to first gen Qs, I wonder if the power dissipates with each generation: as we follow them, we see more of their shoes than where they were headed. - </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/#comment-11120</guid>
		<description>[...] they were headed. Jan 28th, 2008 by Martin Kelley.  // nRelate.domain = &quot;www.quakerranter.org&quot;; //Aj Schwanz on communion and rituals whose meanings have been forgotten  /**/ Share this:EmailFacebookPosted in: Tumbled.  &#8592; I was feeling very discouraged at how [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] they were headed. Jan 28th, 2008 by Martin Kelley.  // nRelate.domain = &quot;www.quakerranter.org&quot;; //Aj Schwanz on communion and rituals whose meanings have been forgotten  /**/ Share this:EmailFacebookPosted in: Tumbled.  &#8592; I was feeling very discouraged at how [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Doubts, torture and forgotten rituals (Links) &#8211; The Quaker Ranter</title>
		<link>http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/comment-page-1/#comment-11051</link>
		<dc:creator>Doubts, torture and forgotten rituals (Links) &#8211; The Quaker Ranter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Oct 2010 23:29:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/#comment-11051</guid>
		<description>[...] Aj Schwanz on communion and rituals whose meanings have been forgotten I understand how the lack of physical symbols is a symbol in itself. While it was seemingly so meaningful to first gen Qs, I wonder if the power dissipates with each generation: as we follow them, we see more of their shoes than where they were headed. (tags: quaker quaker.evangelical quaker.christiantiy) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Aj Schwanz on communion and rituals whose meanings have been forgotten I understand how the lack of physical symbols is a symbol in itself. While it was seemingly so meaningful to first gen Qs, I wonder if the power dissipates with each generation: as we follow them, we see more of their shoes than where they were headed. (tags: quaker quaker.evangelical quaker.christiantiy) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Aj Schwanz &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Random Links on Distracti- Huh?</title>
		<link>http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/comment-page-1/#comment-5580</link>
		<dc:creator>Aj Schwanz &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Random Links on Distracti- Huh?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 04:56:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/#comment-5580</guid>
		<description>[...] Right off the bat she asked what takes away our attention from Christ:  my answer - &#8220;managing consumption&#8220;.  Not a lot of response to that - started making me think that I&#8217;m too heady of a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Right off the bat she asked what takes away our attention from Christ:  my answer &#8211; &#8220;managing consumption&#8220;.  Not a lot of response to that &#8211; started making me think that I&#8217;m too heady of a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Liz Opp</title>
		<link>http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/comment-page-1/#comment-5215</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz Opp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/#comment-5215</guid>
		<description>Great post, Aj.  I&#039;ll have to jump over to Gregg&#039;s blog next...

Your post reminds me of a &quot;mixed wedding&quot; I went to, where one partner of the couple was Quaker and the other was from the UCC--and a minister, at that.

I didn&#039;t mind the initial rituals that were leading up to the Meeting for Worship, given the one partner&#039;s religious practice...  

But where the rubber really met the road for me was when the person presiding over the programmed part of the afternoon--another UCC minister?--invited all of the attenders to &quot;break bread&quot; and participate in a secular form of communion.

There was a long and careful explanation of what the couple&#039;s intention was in offering this ceremony as part of the wedding, and I watched Quaker after Quaker rise to accept this form of communion.

But in the end, I just couldn&#039;t do it.  A lot of it was because I had a Jewish upbringing, not a Christian one.  

It was one of the most difficult things I&#039;ve had to do among Friends, and I often worry that my deep regard for Quaker tradition--including the stripping away of empty forms in order to keep a clear path between ourselves and God--sets me apart from many Friends.  

But sometimes, rituals or not, it&#039;s the only way I know how to be me, deeply.

...I think I&#039;ll expand on this comment in a post of my own.  Thanks again for addressing this topic.  

Blessings,
Liz Opp, &lt;a href=&quot;http://thegoodraisedup.blogspot.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Good Raised Up&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, Aj.  I&#8217;ll have to jump over to Gregg&#8217;s blog next&#8230;</p>
<p>Your post reminds me of a &#8220;mixed wedding&#8221; I went to, where one partner of the couple was Quaker and the other was from the UCC&#8211;and a minister, at that.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t mind the initial rituals that were leading up to the Meeting for Worship, given the one partner&#8217;s religious practice&#8230;  </p>
<p>But where the rubber really met the road for me was when the person presiding over the programmed part of the afternoon&#8211;another UCC minister?&#8211;invited all of the attenders to &#8220;break bread&#8221; and participate in a secular form of communion.</p>
<p>There was a long and careful explanation of what the couple&#8217;s intention was in offering this ceremony as part of the wedding, and I watched Quaker after Quaker rise to accept this form of communion.</p>
<p>But in the end, I just couldn&#8217;t do it.  A lot of it was because I had a Jewish upbringing, not a Christian one.  </p>
<p>It was one of the most difficult things I&#8217;ve had to do among Friends, and I often worry that my deep regard for Quaker tradition&#8211;including the stripping away of empty forms in order to keep a clear path between ourselves and God&#8211;sets me apart from many Friends.  </p>
<p>But sometimes, rituals or not, it&#8217;s the only way I know how to be me, deeply.</p>
<p>&#8230;I think I&#8217;ll expand on this comment in a post of my own.  Thanks again for addressing this topic.  </p>
<p>Blessings,<br />
Liz Opp, <a href="http://thegoodraisedup.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">The Good Raised Up</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mary Linda</title>
		<link>http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/comment-page-1/#comment-5179</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Linda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/#comment-5179</guid>
		<description>I was raised Baptist, born into the church.  I was &quot;saved&quot; at six, baptized at 12.  I can tell you how empty rituals like communion were for me.  The songs, the prayers, the stand-up-sit-down of church service and then the once a month grape juice and crackers meant absolutely nothing to me; they were simply a momentary diversion from the eternal failure (and often boredom) of Sunday morning to help me &quot;find&quot; God.
  
I am thankful for the honesty of Friends Meetings for Worship, the lack of empty ritual.  In Friends Meeting, I have to be engaged.  A couple of times since I began attending Friends Meeting a decade ago, I&#039;ve been in situations in which I had the opportunity to participate in communion.  Because it was something I considered seriously and choose to partake in, I found it moving and meaningful.  I don&#039;t know if I ever would have come to feel that way if it were an activity I partook in on a monthly basis as part of the routine.  I fully understand eschewing ritual which quickly can become proscribed and meaningless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was raised Baptist, born into the church.  I was &#8220;saved&#8221; at six, baptized at 12.  I can tell you how empty rituals like communion were for me.  The songs, the prayers, the stand-up-sit-down of church service and then the once a month grape juice and crackers meant absolutely nothing to me; they were simply a momentary diversion from the eternal failure (and often boredom) of Sunday morning to help me &#8220;find&#8221; God.</p>
<p>I am thankful for the honesty of Friends Meetings for Worship, the lack of empty ritual.  In Friends Meeting, I have to be engaged.  A couple of times since I began attending Friends Meeting a decade ago, I&#8217;ve been in situations in which I had the opportunity to participate in communion.  Because it was something I considered seriously and choose to partake in, I found it moving and meaningful.  I don&#8217;t know if I ever would have come to feel that way if it were an activity I partook in on a monthly basis as part of the routine.  I fully understand eschewing ritual which quickly can become proscribed and meaningless.</p>
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		<title>By: Aj</title>
		<link>http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/comment-page-1/#comment-5160</link>
		<dc:creator>Aj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 04:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/#comment-5160</guid>
		<description>Thank you for continuing the discussion.  It is challenging to think about symbols, lack thereof, sacraments, worship, isn&#039;t it?  But it all points me to God.  And if my posture is right, that of receiving, I have to believe that God will nudge as to what practice He desires or which means of communication would be best for us at the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for continuing the discussion.  It is challenging to think about symbols, lack thereof, sacraments, worship, isn&#8217;t it?  But it all points me to God.  And if my posture is right, that of receiving, I have to believe that God will nudge as to what practice He desires or which means of communication would be best for us at the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Callid Keefe-Perry</title>
		<link>http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/comment-page-1/#comment-5150</link>
		<dc:creator>Callid Keefe-Perry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:08:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/#comment-5150</guid>
		<description>A few things I&#039;d add to this lovely little discussion that may forward things somewhat:

1) Chapter 6 of John Punshon&#039;s book, Encounter with Silence, is titled &quot;Symbols and Images,&quot; and he explicitly grapples with the symbolic meaning of silence.

2)  I am a firm believer in one of the tenents of Communication Theory: You can&#039;t not communicate.  Aj, you write that, &quot;To abstain from symbol is to cut off a powerful means of communicating with and worshiping God.&quot;

Above, Craig writes that, &quot;without symbols, how do we know spiritually and theologically anything?&quot; 

I question the possibility of EVER abstaining from symbols.  Aj points to this with the comment that, &quot;the lack of physical symbols is a symbol in itself,&quot; however it is worth being explicit about:  we understand the world by placing meaning on things.  In the landmark text, Actual Minds, Possible Worlds, the cognitive psychologist Jerome Bruner wrote that it was through narrative that individuals ordered experience and constructed reality.  I think this is doubly true in the field of theological experience.

3)  I have found that religious/theological problems pertaining to  &quot;either/or&quot; duality are usually ripe for the picking in terms of insight.  In particular, I have found that our cultural normative default of fixed, logical, scientific,  Western thought often impairs my ability to enter into a deep immersion in the Divine.  God simply doesn&#039;t play by our rules, and when we try to impose our educated critique on the movement of the Spirit, we get funny results.  Conversely, when we accept that mystery is part of the mystic, prophetic path, we can more readily allow fluid definitions and continually revealing aspects of truth.  For those interested, my pet project at theopoetics.net directly addresses these issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few things I&#8217;d add to this lovely little discussion that may forward things somewhat:</p>
<p>1) Chapter 6 of John Punshon&#8217;s book, Encounter with Silence, is titled &#8220;Symbols and Images,&#8221; and he explicitly grapples with the symbolic meaning of silence.</p>
<p>2)  I am a firm believer in one of the tenents of Communication Theory: You can&#8217;t not communicate.  Aj, you write that, &#8220;To abstain from symbol is to cut off a powerful means of communicating with and worshiping God.&#8221;</p>
<p>Above, Craig writes that, &#8220;without symbols, how do we know spiritually and theologically anything?&#8221; </p>
<p>I question the possibility of EVER abstaining from symbols.  Aj points to this with the comment that, &#8220;the lack of physical symbols is a symbol in itself,&#8221; however it is worth being explicit about:  we understand the world by placing meaning on things.  In the landmark text, Actual Minds, Possible Worlds, the cognitive psychologist Jerome Bruner wrote that it was through narrative that individuals ordered experience and constructed reality.  I think this is doubly true in the field of theological experience.</p>
<p>3)  I have found that religious/theological problems pertaining to  &#8220;either/or&#8221; duality are usually ripe for the picking in terms of insight.  In particular, I have found that our cultural normative default of fixed, logical, scientific,  Western thought often impairs my ability to enter into a deep immersion in the Divine.  God simply doesn&#8217;t play by our rules, and when we try to impose our educated critique on the movement of the Spirit, we get funny results.  Conversely, when we accept that mystery is part of the mystic, prophetic path, we can more readily allow fluid definitions and continually revealing aspects of truth.  For those interested, my pet project at theopoetics.net directly addresses these issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Kelley</title>
		<link>http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/comment-page-1/#comment-5148</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Kelley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:59:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/#comment-5148</guid>
		<description>Hi AJ: I totally love the story of the head-less chickens! 

When I was clerk of a small East Coast Quaker meeting we never had to wrestle with communion (an obvious no-no for us) but some of the dynamics were the same. Whenever someone asked why we did something the way we did, I could count on half the meeting membership to answer &quot;that&#039;s how we do it&quot; and think the case closed. The other half came from academia and would want to launch into a symposium, stripping away all calls to the authority of tradition to find first principles with which to decide the question anew. I thought both approaches were ultimately flawed and only lasted a year as clerk!
Martin @ &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.quakerranter.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Quaker Ranter&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi AJ: I totally love the story of the head-less chickens! </p>
<p>When I was clerk of a small East Coast Quaker meeting we never had to wrestle with communion (an obvious no-no for us) but some of the dynamics were the same. Whenever someone asked why we did something the way we did, I could count on half the meeting membership to answer &#8220;that&#8217;s how we do it&#8221; and think the case closed. The other half came from academia and would want to launch into a symposium, stripping away all calls to the authority of tradition to find first principles with which to decide the question anew. I thought both approaches were ultimately flawed and only lasted a year as clerk!<br />
Martin @ <a href="http://www.quakerranter.org" rel="nofollow">Quaker Ranter</a></p>
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		<title>By: Abbie</title>
		<link>http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/comment-page-1/#comment-5135</link>
		<dc:creator>Abbie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:04:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/#comment-5135</guid>
		<description>AJ! You so totally hit the nail on the head with this one....HOW AWESOME that I just happen to check your blog this Sunday morning.
John and I have REALLY been looking forward to this Communion sermon all week because all through our marriage, in trying different churches, communion was something I really struggled with doing because, well, it just wasn&#039;t something I ever did growing up! I&#039;ll be honest in saying my lack of knowledge about it really keeps me from participating. I don&#039;t want to engage in something half-heartedly. I want to really understand it, and embrace it WHOLE HEARTEDLY. That has been something hard for John to understand, since he grew up with this as a normal Sunday practice. How excited I am to hear what Greg has to say about it today! Thank you for laying the dirt down ahead of time and getting my mind prepared for it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AJ! You so totally hit the nail on the head with this one&#8230;.HOW AWESOME that I just happen to check your blog this Sunday morning.<br />
John and I have REALLY been looking forward to this Communion sermon all week because all through our marriage, in trying different churches, communion was something I really struggled with doing because, well, it just wasn&#8217;t something I ever did growing up! I&#8217;ll be honest in saying my lack of knowledge about it really keeps me from participating. I don&#8217;t want to engage in something half-heartedly. I want to really understand it, and embrace it WHOLE HEARTEDLY. That has been something hard for John to understand, since he grew up with this as a normal Sunday practice. How excited I am to hear what Greg has to say about it today! Thank you for laying the dirt down ahead of time and getting my mind prepared for it!</p>
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		<title>By: craig</title>
		<link>http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/comment-page-1/#comment-5134</link>
		<dc:creator>craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ajschwanz.com/2008/01/26/communing-and-consuming/#comment-5134</guid>
		<description>Thanks Aj, you&#039;ve hit on a really big philosophical point for me.  it is so true that communication occurs through symbols.  Words are metaphors and symbols, as are parables, signs, and drama.  To remove these from congregational life, in the long run is like cutting off your nose to spite your face; or, like spending a nickel to save a penny.  It just can&#039;t support itself in the long run.  I think contemporary Quakerism has hit an epistemological wall on this one: without symbols, how do we know spiritually and theologically anything?  We have to become individualized since lacking shared symbols, we lack communication and community.  Our choices are narrowed to individualism, gnosticism, or empiricism. 

Great fuel for further conversation!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Aj, you&#8217;ve hit on a really big philosophical point for me.  it is so true that communication occurs through symbols.  Words are metaphors and symbols, as are parables, signs, and drama.  To remove these from congregational life, in the long run is like cutting off your nose to spite your face; or, like spending a nickel to save a penny.  It just can&#8217;t support itself in the long run.  I think contemporary Quakerism has hit an epistemological wall on this one: without symbols, how do we know spiritually and theologically anything?  We have to become individualized since lacking shared symbols, we lack communication and community.  Our choices are narrowed to individualism, gnosticism, or empiricism. </p>
<p>Great fuel for further conversation!</p>
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